Brave and Well: Conversations helping mental health professionals build a sustainable, profitable, and values-aligned business

Profit First for Therapists with Julie Herres

• Vanessa Newton • Season 1 • Episode 17

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Welcome back to Brave & Well, friends! In this week's informative and helpful episode, I've invited Profit First expert Julie Herres to join me on the podcast.

Julie is the founder of GreenOak Accounting and has helped hundreds of private practice owners gain financial freedom. She’s an accountant, consultant, speaker, author of Profit First for Therapists and host of the Therapy for Your Money podcast.

Together, we discuss Julie’s experiences helping practices apply the Profit First model and why therapists should embrace it.

Tune in as we explore:

  • What Profit First is and isn’t
  • How weekly transfers can help ease you into the Profit First system
  • Embracing making mistakes in your business as normal
  • Why it’s important that therapists leave the “vow of poverty” narrative behind


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Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Brave and Well podcast. I'm your host, Vanessa Newton. I'm a group practice owner and social worker. I'm also a Latina entrepreneur, mom, and recovering perfectionist. On this podcast, we teach mental health professionals how to build sustainable, profitable, and values-aligned businesses. Here, you'll hear all about decolonizing the business side of private practice and supporting the entrepreneur and the therapist. We'll. Music. To share their stories. Our time together will be raw, honest, vulnerable, and held together by joy. If you like what you hear, subscribe to our newsletter at bravenwell.com slash newsletter dash sign up. Thank you for listening. Music. Hey y'all, welcome to the Brave and Well podcast. I'm your host, Vanessa Newton, licensed clinical social worker, entrepreneur, and group practice owner. I'm so excited. Today we're gonna be interviewing Julie Harris. Julie is an expert in Profit First who has helped hundreds of private practice owners gain financial freedom. Founder of Green Oak Accounting, the country's largest firm serving the mental health industry. Julie is an accountant, consultant, speaker, author of Profit First for Therapists and host of the Therapy for Your Money podcast. I was recently interviewed to be on Julie's podcast and she is such an expert in the work that she does and works exclusively with group practice owners and private practice owners and just such an amazing person in this industry. So I'm excited to dive in. Julie, welcome. I'm really excited for our conversation today. We have Julie Harris from Green Oak Accounting. She also has a podcast, Therapy for Your Money, and I'm really excited to talk about the Profit First model. And for those of you who have been listening to this podcast from the beginning, We have talked about Profit First before, so you can go back and listen to that episode, but we're talking to the expert today. I'm not an expert. I am not an accountant. I am not a CPA. And Julie and her team really have this down. And so welcome, Julie. I'm excited to have you. Thanks for having me, Vanessa. I'm excited to be here. Yeah, so tell us a little bit about you in your businesses and what you do. Yeah. So I am first and foremost an accountant. I lead the team over at Green Oak Accounting. At this point, we are the largest firm in the US that focuses specifically on working with therapists in private practice. So that is literally all we do. We only work with therapists, and then we work with their various side businesses when they have them. And a question. That I get often is like, why therapists? And the true reason is these are people that we love working with. Years ago, I don't have a psychologist mom or a really obvious link, but when my team and I were really looking at who are the people in the business that we really, really enjoy working with, therapists were at the very, very top of the list. All of our therapist clients were just a pleasure to work with. Obviously, you're all highly educated, very smart. You wanted the information that we had to give also. The clients in a lot of other industries that we might say, hey, you really should be doing this and they would just never listen, just ignore everything we said. But I found that therapists really had a hunger for the information, also a willingness to apply the things that we were telling them. And so that became our focus. And then with time, we also really saw if we can share with therapists who are struggling in their practice, some best practices that we're seeing with other clients, that can be really helpful to them. And we were seeing some really significant turnarounds and it doesn't take anything away from anyone, right? I'm not taking clients and giving them to someone else. I'm just saying like, here is a way that you can manage your money in a way that you're going to be financially successful. And that's super valuable as well. I love that you all are so niched because that's really hard to find. You know, I have a CPA here in Austin and he just happens to work with therapists, but it's not, you know, the only population he works with. And so I think it's really important for us to have, you know, folks that understand our world and what we do. And so I wanna jump in and ask you just what, for those of you listening who don't know what Profit First is, What is it? What is profit first? Profit First is a cashflow management system, right? So it's not an accounting software, that would be a QuickBooks. It is not a bank, it is a cashflow management system. So what Profit First does is it leverages your existing habits instead of trying to change them. Because really, as a business owner, if you are trying to make a financial decision, in theory, you should pull out your profit and loss, your balance sheet, your statement of cashflow, right? You should be looking at all of that data to make your decision. But that would assume, first and foremost, that you have accurate data and that it's up to date, right? Which it's not true for all practices, but also it would assume that you would actually do that. And most humans don't actually do it. They all out their bank app or log into the bank on their computer and look at, do I have money? Yes or no. And then make a financial decision. And so Profit First takes that existing habit that you're going to, you're very likely as as a business owner to do bank balance bookkeeping and just uses that information to your advantage. So profit first turns the accounting equation upside down where typically if you're looking at the profit and loss, you'll see income at the top, then minus your expenses and that equals profit. And so what profit first does is we take income minus fit and that will equal your expenses. So we're carving out profit from the very beginning because when you kind of reduce the pot of money available, from the very start, you're able to reduce your expenses. You're intentional about making money, making a profit, and then your expenses are most often naturally going to adapt to that. So there's a couple of principles that we can go over as well, but that's kind of the basic premise that we're, as the name implies, building in profit to every session, every clinician, every day. Thanks for sharing that because it can be confusing, right? When I first, so I started private practice in 2015 and I bought that book, Mike Michalowicz's book, Profit First, read it and was like, this can't be real. I cannot afford to pay myself right now. I just started this business. Everything I have is going back into the business and it was really scary for me. But once I started slowly and just started thinking about paying myself for my worth and and what I deserve in order to have a good living. And, you know, as a business owner, we take a lot of risk in starting a business and we deserve to get compensated for that. And so it really is life-changing, like this model and what it could do for you and your business. Yeah, and what I found in my accounting firm is that we were first, I implemented Profit First with myself, right? As I started my business, and I tell that story in the book, but then we started implementing it with our clients And a lot of clients were coming to us and saying, I've read the book and I love it. Like I'm on, I'm all in, but I don't quite get how to make this work in my therapy practice. Like it doesn't seem like these numbers are going to work for me. What do I do? And so that's where Profit First for Therapists, my new book came from. I'm like, well, let's share this information with the world, how we implement in hundreds of practices. Let's share the tips there. But one of the primary principles of Profit First is that you eat from a smaller plate. And so I was, I grew up in the 80s. And so I am from the, what I call the finisher plate generation, right? If I was eating dinner at my grandma's house and I finished everything on my plate, I was getting praised. So like for me still as an adult, if I'm eating from a big plate or a small plate, I'm probably going to eat most of the food on it. Unless I spend a whole lot of mental energy thinking about. Am I leaving this? Am I leaving not? Should I have one more bite? That's just how I'm wired. And so the way we translate that in Profit First to your money is if you have one big plate, which is your bank account, all the cash is going into that big plate and then all the expenses are coming out of that, you're seeing a big pile of money and your brain is naturally going to say, okay, this is the money that we have to spend, let's spend it. But when we use smaller plates in Profit First, we have multiple bank accounts. We're earmarking funds in a variety of bank account for their intended purposes. So in this case, we have an income account. All the money coming into the business is going into that income account. Then we're going to have three accounts that directly benefit the owner, and those are profit account, and that's meant to reward you for being a shareholder of the business. We have the owner's pay account. That's for the business owner to get paid for the work that they do in the business. And we also have the tax account. And so most practice owners in the US, They have a pass-through entity, and that means that their business is not paying tax at the federal level. Sometimes it is at the state level, but rather, the profit flows through to the personal tax return where it is taxed. So technically, the business doesn't pay tax. But the owner does. But we earmark funds for that so that it doesn't come out of your daily cashflow as a business owner. You've got money when it's time for taxes. You've got the money. It's right there. And we have two other accounts for therapists. We have an operating expenses account and a payroll account that's optional if you have team members, basically. So if you have team members, we typically will open a payroll account there. And so you have several smaller plates. And so when you're looking to make a decision, you're maybe looking at that operating expenses account. And instead of seeing a big large pile of cash that's earmarked for payroll and taxes and for you, you're seeing what actually is available for you to spend in the business. So if you're thinking of a software, you might say, okay, I can afford this or no, this doesn't make sense for me now, but you can make decisions based on that information. That is exactly backwards of what we do. It's like we pay our bills first, and then you think about paying yourself, right? And I mean, that's how I was raised too. Like first we pay the rent and everything else comes afterwards. And so I think this can be really challenging for folks to just think about, and really it is a practice, like it is a way of being and moving through your business. And so. Why do you think this model works so well for private practice owners and even group practice owners? Yeah, and we see it work well from pre-revenue all the way to large multi-million dollar group practices, right? We really have clients like in that whole, that entire range. I find that private practice owners tend to be generally compliance driven, right? And that makes sense in such an ethics heavy field where if you know what the right thing is to do, you're typically going to do it. But for most therapists, they don't know what the right thing is to do with their money. So if you have a framework, if you have kind of a box within which to work or some guidelines of your payroll should be between this and this percent, that is really helpful information I found and that you're able to take that, adapt it to your practice and then run with it. And because you know you're within those goalposts. I find that that's one of the reasons it works well. If you're constantly borrowing from the tax account or pillaging the profit account, then it doesn't work, right? But I've never seen a therapist accidentally spend their tax money on a boat, which I have had a client in another industry do that. Like, oh, I accidentally bought a boat with my tax money. Like, that is not an accident. Didn't fall into a pothole, you bought a whole boat. That was not an accident, but that in most cases tends to be true. And so there still are sometimes emergencies in the business, right? And sometimes in private practice, it's an emergency that you don't control. Like. An insurance panel stops paying you. That does happen. And so within those emergencies, there are some times where like, okay, we might have to take a little money from the tax account. Sometimes that is the reality of private practice owners. But I'd much rather do that when you have money in the tax account than when like everything is gone and there's nothing to do. Like you just have to shut down the business. That's not a good situation to be in. Right, I like that you brought up the whole insurance paying thing because as a group practice who is both self-pay and insurance, we do take insurance. What would you say to someone in terms of this model as we're waiting to get our funds from insurance and get our payouts from insurance, but we also have to run payroll, that in between. Where does that come from? Yeah. Well, so there's a couple of different ways that we manage that within Profit First. So. Ideally, in an ideal world, we want to build a buffer in that payroll account, in all accounts, but I think it's really important in that payroll account to have a buffer. That doesn't happen usually on day one though, right? Unless you're starting Profit First with just piles of cash everywhere, that's not usually the reality. So over time, we really want to aim to fund that account more than it needs so that you have ideally one full month of payroll just sitting there, right? Where you're running payroll, it's never going back to zero. That is an ideal situation. That doesn't happen again on day one. One of the ways that we often start Profit First with our practice owner clients, or specifically group practices, is we, instead of doing transfers. Twice a month, which is what was recommended in the original Profit First, we often start our clients with a weekly transfer. Because that's much less time between transfers. You just have to make it one week. That is much less overwhelming. I also find that it helps practice owners really see the ebb and flow of money in their practice. You're looking at the numbers every Friday. You're going to pretty quickly have a sense of how much is supposed to be in that income account every Friday. And if it's not, you can right away get to work troubleshooting what's happening. Did we not get an insurance payment? Did the biller stop billing this week? Are we not working denials, like what is happening, but you can find, you're getting that alarm bell much faster than if that information is buried in all the other expenses of the business, where it would take weeks longer to find that out. Yeah, that's how we do it. We do weekly transfers on Friday. Either Friday or Monday, but it's super helpful because it's also not as big of a chunk that's coming out every week, right? And you can visibly see like, wow, this is, we're getting ready to either prepare for some type of bonus that we're giving during the holiday season, or we just are filling up that reserve to have in case of an emergency. So it's, I find that weekly transfers are much better. I used to do monthly and that was really hard. Okay, yeah, it's hard to go an an entire month. Well, and one of the drivers to success, in my opinion, are, funding the bank accounts correctly up front, right? And we go into that in a lot of detail in the book. But if you know, if you're funding those accounts and you know there's not enough money to make it to the next transfer day, you're setting yourself up for failure, right? If you're putting $2,000 in that bank account and you have a $3,000 rent check that needs to go out. The math doesn't work. It's not going to work out. By being able to just make it a week, that's a lot less money usually that needs to be in there to start building that reserve over time. So I'm glad that you're doing weekly because that's often how we start. And then sometimes eventually our clients go to every other week if they want to when they're in a place where there's enough money, like things are moving in the right direction, but sometimes they just want to stay with weekly. That's okay too. Yeah. And when we talk about transfers, right, Julie, we're talking about like from all the revenue that the business is making, there are transfers that happen that go into each of these different bank accounts that Julie talked about. Yes. So yeah, you're right. I should take a step back. And so we have that income account, right? All the money of the business is coming into that account. In most cases for an insurance practice, the current checking account becomes your income account because we don't want to disrupt anything when it comes to insurance, right? So that account, just all the deposits stay there. We move all of the expenses out. So then when we're talking about once a week transfers, Once a week, you'll look at what's the dollar amount in that income account and then transfer money based on allocations, right, based on percentages to the other five bank accounts. So you'll say, okay, there's $10,000 in this account. I'm moving $5,000 to payroll. I'm moving$500 to profit, right, depending on what your allocations are. Yeah. Thank you for saying that because I know people are like, what transfers? Yes, but yes, that's exactly right. So what do you think or what do you see are the most common money mistakes that practice owners make before becoming aware of Profit First and really implementing this? Not saving for taxes is a big one. And of course that's top of mind for me because it is tax season, right? We just went through that. Taxes are a big deal, right? And this tends to happen much more on the early stages of a private practice, right? Someone in that first year or two of private practice, but taxes and not having enough money for taxes can follow you for a couple of years. And then there's some catch up to be done. I also think there... Is it a tendency in those early years to do everything for a practice owner right where you're maybe, you're seeing clients but you're also doing the billing and the website and this and that and to stay in that place where they're doing everything so instead of increasing revenue by outsourcing some pieces, they're trying to do everything much longer than necessary. I think there's some value, certainly, in knowing how to do all the things in your practice, but there comes a point where it makes sense for you to pay someone who's less expensive to do that task and for you to take on the things that are revenue generating in the business, like the marketing piece, or referral sources, or just even seeing another client. Sometimes that makes more financial sense. And then for a group practice, I might say, not looking at how much an employee is going to cost in total, right? Not just the employee, the training time, the benefits, the payroll taxes, the additional marketing, and having a safety net for the practice to properly onboard that person and get them up to speed. Because it can be pretty expensive and your new team members shouldn't have to worry whether they're going to get paid or not. And so for the practice owner to have a buffer can can be really helpful. And Profit First certainly lends itself to that where you can build up that buffer right into that. Into that payroll account and know when you're ready or not. Yeah, that's such a big one is, you know, if you do have employees, really understanding how much that's going to cost you. And I talk about like the non-financial piece to the clinician, but it costs you something, you know, as a business owner, it costs you something to have that employee. And that was something I was not aware of when I switched to a W-2 model was just how expensive it was going to be, just to pay taxes on them, right? That's not even including everything else you provide and preparing for that, preparing for those costs. So that's a really big one. And I think practice owners tend to be optimists when it comes to hiring. So they'll look at like, okay, well, I'm going to bring this person in and I want them to see 25 clients a week. And so that means they're always going to bring in this revenue, right? And the reality is, it takes time. First of all, if that is your goal, it takes time, right? It's not week one that they're going to be at 25 sessions per week, but sometimes people slip down, right? So what if they're seeing 22 clients per week? Does the math still make sense, right? Does your compensation model still makes sense for you? Are you still bringing enough revenue that this makes sense, right? Because if you're setting, for example, a salary, which is not common, but is happening more and more often, is the salary based on best case scenario or what is likely to happen, right? Is there any kind of wiggle room there? Like that can be a big deal too. Yeah. I think about, I have a question about just practices who don't have consistent income, right? You know, like a practice like me, who's commission based, we take insurance, we do self pay. There's a lot of, we don't have a set dollar amount that we can count on every week, right? Or every day that's going to come in. Can this profit first model still work for us? Yes, absolutely. It really can work in any model. And in the book, I actually talk about. There's a whole chapter on compensation for team members, right? So clinical admin leadership, And I would probably look at what is the compensation model for clinicians, because that's typically going to be the biggest expense going out, and is it aligned with the flow of money? Because you're right, if you have, for example, a salary like we just talked about, you have to pay that salary to your team member, whether you get money or not, right? So that is higher risk for the practice, lower risk for the team member. I would look at, do you have accountability pieces in place? Are you able to track where a clinician is? Are they able to track? Are they being held accountable for what the expectation is? And if the answer there is no, maybe a base plus commission might make more sense as a compensation model or a commission model. What makes financial sense for the practice where there's pros and cons to every single one of those within profit first, as you're moving money, there will build a buffer. And the reality is, if there's an issue, right? If insurance doesn't pay and you can't make payroll, that problem is going to come up whether you're doing profit first or not. There's just usually more security and more kind of piles of money to help get through that situation when you are implementing profit first. One thing I've learned, Vanessa, about business ownership is things will go wrong, right? It just will. Things will break, things will go wrong. And I think practice owners who are telling themselves, oh, if something breaks... Someone did something wrong, right? They're setting themselves up for failure. Things will break. That is a certainty. As far as I'm concerned, 100%, sometimes you're not quite going to be able to make payroll. You have to have a solution for that. Or someone's going to leave or whatever. Things are going to happen. It's not fun, but it's true. They always do. You're so right. And when you think that you've figured something out, something else comes up. Yeah. I'm sure I know it's happened in my business. probably it's happened in your business at some point, like, we have a tendency to beat ourselves up about it. And like, this is just a reality of business. Like, things are going to break. Has anything broken in your business recently? Oh my gosh. Yeah. Well, recently we had several clinicians leave for various reasons, you know, and it was such a huge financial hit that I don't think we were prepared for that. And I think that it was just a huge wake-up call of like, Like, we've got to do some things differently, you know? And it is, it's a punch to the gut of, oh my gosh, how could I, I could not have anticipated this and I should have known better, right? That's what I tell myself, but we figure it out and we move through it. And that's been really hard, just kind of sitting with that. And, you know, the landscape of therapy right now is so different and more people are going into business for themselves and owning a group practice is different now than it was back in 2015 when I first started. And so we're always having to adjust and pivot and change the way that we do things. But the one thing that is constant and priority is the financial wellness of our practice, right? That is the priority at all times. It has to be. And every practice deserves to be profitable, right? I sometimes feel like we have to convince our clients that they should make money in private practice. Private practice is a business of wellness, right? Like you are helpers at heart and you're out there to do good in the world. And that is very, very noble. But you also have to make money to like practically to feed yourself, to feed your family, roof over your head, right? Like you deserve as practice owners, you deserve all those things. And it's really hard to do great work if those things feel uncertain. Yeah, I appreciate you saying that because I think that's the one thing that we need to hear more often than not is that we are worthy of paying ourselves, we are worthy of charging a rate that we deserve and turning a profit. That yes, we are service providers. You know, then I think... We do really important work, but we're deserving of that in return. So just shifting that mindset around money, I think is important. Unfortunately, I think there's a narrative in the industry, right, in the mental health industry that starts in grad school that like being a therapist is a vow of poverty. And I think that's, that's unhelpful and untrue as well. So that's one of the many, many reasons I wrote Profit First for Therapists. Like, I don't think that needs to be true. I think you can do great work in the community and have a huge impact and pay yourself well because I've never seen spinal surgeons say like oh well you know let me reduce my ray. Sliding scale oh you can't afford me okay let me do a pro bono for you right like they might do some pro bono it's few and far between they do very very well but like why why is it so different in therapy I don't think it has to be this way. Right so what would you say to someone who is. Wanting to make some financial changes in their practice but they're not sure where to start or they're just feeling overwhelmed. I would say start where you are today. That is usually the best place to be. Within the Profit First system, when you're just starting, you usually will start with the instant assessment. And that is an assessment of where is your practice today? Where do you stand today? And you're actually, from that day, you're not making any very big swift changes, right? From that, you figure out where your practice stands, then you're opening bank accounts, and then you're going to start transferring based on exactly where your practice is today. So, we're doing small baby steps, one thing at a time. There's this tendency to want to just fix everything on day one, but if you're trying, for example, to go from 0% profit to 10% profit in one day, that has to come from somewhere, right? That is a huge amount of change that has to happen all at once. And when you're trying to go that fast, that can be unsuccessful. So if you're truly starting where you are today, there's no shame in that. Where you are today is where you were meant to be, but you can make small incremental changes and that tends to be much more successful in the long run than someone trying to just blow up their business and redo everything. And so I would say start today and start small. It does not have to be big, but just the act of moving your money into those five or six accounts. That alone is going to make a difference in your business and give you a lot of clarity over what's going on. So that can be step one, right? Then step two is, okay, let's make a little tweak, change 1% up, 1% down. That's your next step. And then you're going to look at your expenses and say, where can I cut? What can be different? What can we do? And that's not always cutting also. Sometimes it's how can we keep the expenses that we have stable, but increase the revenue that's coming into the business, right? There's a lot of different opportunities. So it's not just about scarcity, it's about... Abundance sometimes, like how can we just increase the revenue without increasing expenses? Boom, done. It doesn't have to be difficult and it doesn't have to be everything all on day one. Right. And I'm glad that you said that about it's not just about cutting, it's also about thinking what can we do that can add variety, right? I think we get so stuck sometimes in just like the one-on-one individual work and that's where we're at right now as a group practice is how do we increase our revenue in creative ways and collaborate with our team members to think of other ideas and opportunities that frankly don't burn us out, you know, in the same way that maybe one-on-one work can be exhausting, but that also is beneficial to the business. And so, yeah, that's where we're at right now. Yeah. So, and one example that's top of mind for me is, you know, sometimes we'll run this instance, an assessment and see, for example, admin is high compared to what we recommend as far as a target, right? And so that doesn't mean, okay, you have to fire your admin, right? Not at all. What that usually means is, okay, let's find a way to use this admin, however many there are, right? One, one and a half, two, three, five. Let's find a way to streamline their position so that you can maybe... What if you could double your income and keep the the same admin team, then you're in a really great place. That is positive for everyone. So it's not just you're cutting positions, you're going back to doing it all on your own. That's really not it at all. There's so much opportunity for business owners to just increase their revenue. Exactly. Okay, tell us about your book because you've mentioned it a few times and I want everyone to buy it and everyone to know about it. Well, I would be honored if you would order a copy. My book is Profit First for Therapists. You can find it on Amazon, on Audible, on Kindle, and also at many online bookstores, like Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, all of those. And in the book, I really wanted to adapt the Profit First system for therapists, right? So I took all the things that we were doing in my accounting firm, and I wanted to share that with every practice owner out there. I mentioned earlier, I want every practice to be profitable, and yet I can't possibly work with every private practice out there. So like, this is my way of getting this information out into the world so that it can apply to all private practices. Bye. Since I'm also an accountant, I wanted to also give practice owners the building blocks of financial literacy that I know that they need. So I have things like compensation for team members, I have a chapter on scaling, a chapter on paying down debt, because even though a lot of practice owners don't have necessarily debt in the business, they sometimes have $100,000 in the student loans and that is following you like a monkey on your back too. So we talk about that, some tax basics, by understanding what's an estimated tax payment, when is that due? Like all those little things are in there so that you can have a really good financial understanding of all of the financial side of private practice in this book. I'm so excited because this is what we need. There is nothing out there like it. I don't care where you are, at what stage you are in your business. This is a book that everyone needs and I can't wait to read it and just share it with everybody. So thank you for writing it and putting it together. And I want to mention, I really was intentional about, you know, it's not just for group practice. It's not just for solo practice. There is something for everyone. So someone who is thinking about starting a private practice, there is something for you here. If you're in solo practice, there's something for you. Transitioning into a group, we've got you. Like all the different stages are in there so that you can pick and choose what applies to you at that point. That's really great. It's going to be life-changing. I just know it. So how can folks find you and your team? Yeah, absolutely. So my team is at Green Oak Accounting. You can always find us at greenoakaccounting.com. We do offer a free consultation for anyone who's interested in finding out about our services and seeing if we might be a good fit for you. You can also find a whole lot of tools available at Profit First for Therapists. And actually, if you go to profitfirstfortherapists.com slash brave, for your listeners, as I'm offering our free Reverse Engineer Your Practice Calculator. So if you go to ProfitFirstForTherapists.com slash brave, you can get that free calculator. It's going to help you look at. What does your practice need to be to support you in your ideal lifestyle? So what size does your practice need to be? How many sessions per month? It will help you figure that out so that you can go live your best life because you deserve it. Amazing, thank you so much for doing that. And I always send people to Therapy For Your Money as well because you have such great resources on there and your podcast is wonderful. So please check that out. And I'll include all this information in the show notes for you. And Julie, thank you so much. Thank you for being here and thank you for sharing your wisdom and I'm excited to get your book. Yeah, thank you. I'm excited. And we have an episode with you on therapy for your money too so check it. Yeah, let's try that. All right, y'all. Until next time, stay brave. Thank you so much for listening to the Brave and Well podcast. You can find links and resources from this episode in the show notes at www.bravenwell.com. Music. Then send it to a friend. For free resources, special announcements, and discount codes, subscribe to our newsletter at bravenwell.com forward slash newsletter dash sign up. Music.