Brave and Well: Conversations helping mental health professionals build a sustainable, profitable, and values-aligned business

The Leadership Balancing Act — Accountability, Authority & Learning with Level Up Leaders

• Vanessa Newton • Season 1 • Episode 21

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In this deeply honest episode, I’m talking with the owners of Level Up Leaders, Julianne Guinasso and Poonam Natha.

Together, we discuss the joys and challenges of maintaining a psychologically safe practice that doesn’t compromise the needs of the business.

Julianne and Poonam are psychotherapists with over 14 years of combined experience leading large teams in mental health. They believe in the power of relationships in supporting employee retention and cultivating psychological safety through a work culture of trust.

Tune in as we explore:

  • The vulnerability and responsibility of being a leader
  • The importance of a good mindset match when hiring employees
  • The delicate dance of accountability and authority
  • Creating intentional spaces for teams to share and grow


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Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Brave and Well podcast. I'm your host, Vanessa Newton. I'm a group practice owner and social worker. I'm also a Latina entrepreneur, mom, and recovering, perfectionist. On this podcast, we teach mental health professionals how to build sustainable, profitable, and values aligned businesses. Here, you'll hear all about decolonizing the business side of private practice and supporting the entrepreneur and the therapist. We'll. Music. Also invite fellow therapists and healers to share their stories. Our time together will be raw, honest, vulnerable, and held together by joy. If you like what you hear, subscribe to our newsletter at braveandwell.com slash newsletter-signup. Thank you for listening. Hi, y'all. I'm so excited for today's episode with Poonam and Julianne of Level Up Leaders. In 2014, Poonam and Julianne became supervisors and office neighbors, quickly bonding over the idea that taking care of their therapists would provide the clinical outcomes their bosses and communities craved. As fellow LMFTs, they believe that more than any other factor, relationships at work predict, employee performance. They work with therapists ready to cultivate psychological safety in their group practices through leadership development, workplace culture, and employee management strategies. They know that taking a human approach to leadership development makes the world a better place. Hi everyone, welcome to another Brave and Well podcast episode. I'm so excited today we have the ladies from Level Up Leaders, Poonam and Julianne. And so without further ado, let's jump into the episode. Hi y'all, thanks for being here. Thank you so much for having us. Yeah, I feel like we've been following each other on Instagram for a little while. And so it's always so nice to connect with people that we see on the web. I've done a few interviews in the past week or so and just him meeting people for the first time And it's just fun. It's really cool. Yeah, it's cool to, I think, be inspired by other people online and then just be able to share space or connect. I think with people we wouldn't have otherwise gotten to connect with because it's out of state or whatnot. And I feel like it's always really special to be able to widen that that net and connection. Yeah. Well, I'm excited to dive in. Tell us about your partnership together and how you came to do this work. That's a fun story. Julianne and I became office neighbors many moons ago, and we really bonded over this idea that, we needed to create healthy work cultures. And in order for our clients to receive the best care, our workspaces needed to be healthy, and we needed to take care of our people. So that really created this bond that I think has carried us through the years. And I think the other thing that happened for us is that we learned by making all the mistakes. We both became supervisors together and we didn't really have a whole lot of guidance and so we relied a whole lot on each other because our values were so aligned and we learned how we wanted to lead together by making all the mistakes and then ultimately what that turned into is we don't want other people to have to learn by making those same mistakes or have to learn through the fire and so that helped us create our leadership framework which really is grounded in trauma informed workplaces and psychological safety so that we can have healthy work environments. And what what is the work that each of you do? So are you private practice owners? What's your background? Yeah, so we're licensed Spare Jim family therapists in California. And so we met in actually in the nonprofit world. So being supervisors, managers and director roles, as we kind of like grew up together professionally and manage large teams. And then, you know, as Poonam said, we started to be like, wait, this is working. We were in really hard working environments and we're seeing that our employees really want to stay. They're referring their friends and their families and their colleagues. And they're really feeling seen and supported. And so what's happening here and how do we reverse engineer what's happening here and provide tools that we wish we would have had when we started? And from there, it's kind of grown. So currently, I'm in private practice, my husband and I actually have a practice together and Poonam, I'll let you share what you're also currently doing. So I'm still in the nonprofit world and I manage a crisis stabilization program. You all have so much experience from both private practice entity, but also working in a nonprofit agency setting, which I think is so invaluable. You know, I think a lot of people leave grad school and go straight into private practice and I'm a clinical supervisor too, and one of the things that I talk to my supervisees about is. Get that agency experience, get that non-profit experience. Because there is nothing like working in a workplace setting like that to give you the knowledge and just the experience of being in a place, that you're working as a team, hopefully, right, collaboratively. And you're growing and you're challenging yourself in different ways. And others are challenging you, because when you go to private practice, it is you are in an island like you are working in silo. And there is no one to just check you or hold you accountable Well, unless you've created that community for yourself. So I'm a big fan. I mean, I did 10 plus years of working in agencies and schools. And so big fan of doing that before going out on your own. Yeah, I do think there's just something really unique about that experience. And like you said, being with other people who, as we would say, like are in the trenches, as far as like really relying on each other to expand, how do we show up in this work? How do we still stay aligned with our values? I think sometimes when we work for these bigger entities, there can be that misalignment sometimes and we're asked to do things and we're like, wait a minute, how do we do this? And so I think you get a lot of good structures and support and knowledge. And then I think you get stretched to have to really be like, who am I and how do I show up in this space? How do I find other people who also believe what I believe and how do we start to influence these bigger systems, which can be very like overwhelming to do, Yeah, it's really beautiful when you do find like-minded people, that impact you can slowly start to make. And you can be like, we can work in this hard system and still create a healthy working space. And here are the ways we can do it. And I really feel like it goes back to like that relationship piece. So it's interpersonal dynamics at work. Yeah, I mean, employing people is one of the hardest things I've ever done. Yes. I've learned that no matter how hard I try, I'm not gonna make everyone happy. And I, you know, I started my group practice in 2018 and I spent the first three years really just overextending myself to make everyone else happy and make their lives work for them. And it's just impossible. And so I guess what would you say are the components to creating a healthy workplace while also prioritizing the needs of the business. All about that relationship. It really is so much of having authentic, open, honest conversations. Practicing compassion, being open to having hard conversations, staying grounded, having practices, having a lot of self-awareness, and being considerate of everyone that's around you, knowing that we can honor the relationship that we have and also do the work. It's about having the conversations about both sort of simultaneously, if you will. Julianne, what would you say? Yeah. I mean, I think that I definitely hear myself in your story, Vanessa, as far as like, when I first started off, I was like, I'm going to be like the best leader and everyone's going to like me so much. And like, right. I feel like it's a very much a therapist mentality. We know how to build rapport. Like we really want people to feel safe. And so I think it's our inner instincts to do. And then I definitely found myself in a, an impossible space where like, oh, I can't make everyone happy. I do make mistakes. And now they're public. Like these are like public things where people are seeing me make errors. So I feel like I found humility over and over and over again. And so it was like, how do I still stay open, like still keep my heart space open, for lack of a better word, and not close off and not feel like my employees are against me when they think or when they don't understand a decision I had to make or when I realize like, oh, I'm doing you a disservice if I don't keep you accountable. I'm doing myself a disservice when I am being so like lenient or tapping into more of like that people-pleasing like mentality and it's really not like serving anyone or even the business for that matter and it shows. And so it's like finding that way to still be aligned with like my values and who I who I saw myself to be. Yet knowing that like, if this hard feedback is not going to come from me, who's it going to come from? And so how do I allow myself to be the one to give them the hard feedback consistently and still be able to do it in a way that feels safe? It doesn't mean like it's always positive, of course. Sometimes it really is hard. There's tears, whether it's from me or from them. So I feel like there are those hard moments. And yeah, it's an opportunity to really be honest and and truthful and connect and grow. And I think, you know, you and I both talk about this where sometimes our hardest conversations we had or we thought, oh my gosh, they must hate us. Or like, they do hate us. Maybe we don't work together anymore. And then they actually circle back around and those are the people who are texting you on holidays or they're reaching out and saying, hey, I just wanted to let you know this was like a huge learning moment for me and I'll never forget it. And I'm so grateful. And you're just like, wait, what? Like, you're just like totally shocked and floored. And so I feel like that helps shift that paradigm or that awareness of like, Oh yeah, hard conversations actually aid in everyone's wellbeing when, when they're done still centering your values and you know, you can still show up and be who you know you are and tap into hard conversations. Yeah. I mean, I've been having to have a lot of hard conversations. I feel like the last year and a half and right before I went on leave, I had a pretty hard like town hall meeting that we had called when, And it was just an opportunity for me to press the reset button and kind of share like these are the challenges that I'm seeing and that we're experiencing. This is where we're headed. This is where we need to go. What do you think? How do you feel? These are the numbers, right? Practicing that transparency and saying like, I'm not leaving anything up for question. I'm gonna give you all the information you need. To feel like you are a part of this greater team. Because when we hide information, when we don't share, when we don't have hard conversations, that's where the trust is broken. And it took me a while to figure that out because I thought the reverse. I felt like, let me keep all of this to myself as a way to protect them. But then that's where the trust. Is broken. Right. And then I was in fear that they would leave, that they would be upset, like you said, but the transparency is what they want. They just want honesty, and they want to feel a part of something bigger than them. Yeah, I love that. Like, our employees are like the greatest script writers, and they will absolutely write in the story if they don't have that information. And I feel like, often that script writing is going to come from like their fears, their stories, their past work history. And so I think you're totally right when you can really be like, here's what we really need to talk about. Like, here's what's on the table. Here's how I need us all to show up. Like I think of all the productivity conversations, right? No one likes to talk about that. It's on the table to real. And so how do we be really clear about what it is that we're needing? And how do you all feel like a part of that? So I love what you said, where it's like that collaborative piece and that champion piece of like, we all want this to work. So how do we each individually own we say piece of the pie, because there was like a moment when I had to have a really hard conversation with a group of employees and literally went and bought individual pies for everyone. So I was like, how do I give this visual representation? Like we each have our piece of the pie here. I know I have my part. I know you have your part. How do we each own that and know what that means? And can really show up in a way where everyone can share what's getting in their way of being able to deliver on this piece of pie or own this part? What resources are they missing? Where do they feel like they're not being supported? What gaps are there, right? Like there's so many times where I would think something in my head would make sense systematically. And then they would so eloquently be able to be like actually this is what it looks like in real life and here's what's not happening or here's what's now happening as a result of this decision. Yeah curiosity is such a huge component there too and having to be open to those different perspectives because when we close ourselves off we jump to conclusions and we make these assumptions that cause so much more rupture than is necessary. Yeah, it's easy to take it personal because it is personal, right? And become defensive. And I think it's our business. It's our livelihood. We've this is my. Third child at this point, right? Like this is was my first baby. And so it is so personal. And every time someone leaves, it's personal. Every time someone gives hard feedback. It feels personal. Every time there's a rupture, it feels personal. Like it just is so easy to internalize that for yourself if you haven't done your work as a leader and as a human. And so let's talk about like, what does it mean to do your own internal work as a leader? It's so much self-awareness and so much time for reflection. I think that the mistake that we make as leaders and as practice owners is we get caught up in the, it's so busy, I have this many tasks to do. And what we don't do is create space for blink time, if you will, or like white space calendar time, for lack of better words, where you actually spend time thinking about, hey, what worked today? What didn't work today? Or how is what I'm doing? How are my policies, my procedures, the way I'm navigating my interactions. How are they aligned with my values and the values that I have in my practice? And really taking that time to be intentional and thoughtful about those things, or even the things like making sure that there's space between appointments and supervisions and meetings to practice grounding and take care of ourselves. I think that when we don't do those things, it really does have an impact on our ability to have compassion for our people. I I think it really has an impact on our ability to create these value-based practices, if you will. Yeah, I think you're always being projected on when you're in a leadership position. And I think the projections go both ways. I think sometimes you're put on a pedestal and people can really appreciate you in moments. And that feels really nice when that's happening. And you're like, yay, you're like, I'm nailing this, like I've got this. And those things are real and true. And then I think when it swings that the pendulum swings because it will. I think when you're getting that hard feedback. It's just the level of vulnerability. I had no idea. Like I always think back to my previous leaders and I think, gosh, like I really didn't give them the generosity and the compassion they deserved because I had no idea what it was really like to be in a leadership position and be feeling. Like this exposed and knowing that everything was being like watched for lack of a better word and everything was being analyzed. And there were opinions to all the moves I made, even if it was small, like, I can't think of anything specific, but it could be as small as like, I brought in snaps, and there might be opinions about that, or because I made a huge policy shift in the way that we like did phone calls or process change or whatnot. And so I think it's, it's really getting clear about like, I feel good about this decision, I understand the why, how do I now include them into what that why is for them to and how to connect them to this process or purpose, and and then also be okay with when I encounter my own shame or when I get triggered or when I feel like, I'm not being given that generosity or compassion, how can I actually give it to myself first and then remind myself that I can also ask that of them. I can remind them to like, I'm also needing for you to extend this generosity or compassion to me in the way that I've extended that to you. And remembering that we can actually ask for that when we ourselves have modeled it and embodied it and demonstrated it for them. I think like, Julian, you just bring up this idea of we, you know, we're humans and we're going to have responses. Vanessa, you said this earlier too, it feels very personal sometimes, right? When we... Try to push down those emotions. Like when we become resentful or feel frustrated or become angry and we think to ourselves, oh, I can't feel that as a leader. I'm not supposed to feel that way about my employees, or I'm not supposed to experience these things. And when we don't take time to pay attention to those emotions and really pay attention to what the message is behind those and what they're telling us, then again, we don't create this intentional practice that we're doing. And it's harmful to our practice. It's harmful to us. It's harmful to our employees. Right. Yeah. I mean, clear is kind. Right. And I always say, like, I went from going into solo practice because I wanted to be my own boss and I wanted to make my own decisions and like have agency over my life to starting a group practice where now I was having to take into consideration other people. Right. It wasn't just about me. And boy, is that like a huge reality check in a shift. Not only do I have to take into consideration. And what they think and how they feel, but I also have to figure out a way to include them in the process. And if you're not prepared to do that, and if you haven't figured out the shifts that you have to make as a leader to welcome other people into that process, into your business, it can really shake you up. It's like having, I associate it to like having a kid for the first time expose the very, the most vulnerable parts of me and having to like, feeling like I was restarting therapy all over again, you know? And so I think now being in a place where I'm like, okay, I've got to get a leadership coach. I've got to figure out like new ways of supporting myself. So that I can not lean into resentment. So I can not lean into scarcity or the comparison trap or the imposter syndrome or be defensive with others. Because I know for me, if I'm leaning into those things, that's a good sign that there's something going on with me internally. And I need to figure out what that is. And so, so many times we ignore that. Ignore the signs that are coming up for us, especially as solo entrepreneurs, because. If we just silence them, then maybe they will go away and they just fester. Yes, they grow. They totally grow. And it is hard, right? Because often, I think group practice centers are wearing so many hats, and there's already difficulty with figuring how to delegate and when you're in that space where you are so busy and then these things come up I do think there's that that hesitancy to hope that like well hopefully it'll go away in a little bit and I won't have to worry about it or maybe we had this awkward interaction but hopefully in a little bit it'll it'll be fine and I think those little micro moments when they're missed and like you said they're they're invitations right they're invitations to take a deeper look and kind of to figure out like what's going on there. We always like to say like our resentment meter is a reflection of like transparency. Um, and I think our disappointment or hurt is like, uh, an invitation for repair. And so like really looking at what those invitations are and what it's asking you to do. Yeah. I love that. I mean, what I've noticed is that many people who have joined my group practice often come from working in harmful and oppressive systems. Right. And so they come to us and they often, it's almost like they cannot believe that they are working in a place that starts from a place of trust and assuming the best of people. And I'm curious, like, what have you all seen be one of the greatest downfalls? On the flip side, like, we've talked about us as leaders, but also for employees, like, who walk into spaces with their armored up or with fear of building those relationships and leaning in for fear that they might be harmed again. Like, what do you see is kind of the downfall of that? I think what I see is when employees are coming in armored up and naturally, right? They don't know that this is a safe environment yet. They don't ask questions, they don't seek feedback, or when they do get feedback, they become defensive at times. And so it gets really challenging as a leader to have to hold space for that. Know and it takes time but it's hard for a leader to have to remind and continue to like. Practice creating that safe space. And the employees really need corrective experiences, but the downfall is that it impacts the client care and it impacts their ability to own up to mistakes and take accountability, which can get challenging. And then for a leader then who sees that over and over again to find that balance of, okay, I know that this person has come from a. Harmful work environment previously. I want to hold space for them. I want to call out the mistakes, but I also don't want to make them feel demoralized or defeated in any way. And at the same time, this is my practice and I need to make sure my clients are taken care of. And so it becomes this really tricky position that we find ourselves in and have to work through together truly, because that trust doesn't happen unless you're actually talking about the relationship and talking about the things you're seeing and noticing in the interactions that are happening. Yeah. And I think sometimes it's allowing them to name their previous work history if they're willing to, and I realize they may not be ready yet, but I think allowing them space to name what that was like for them and then giving them invitation to say, like, I realized that until you probably see me embody the things that we talk about, you may not trust that this is real or that this will be consistent. And I think it's even an invitation or reminder to leaders that I think sometimes our biggest trust moments are when they see us in the hot seat. So when they see us actually being challenged or when they see us make a mistake and we're able to not be perfect, but when we're able to like own our part in like what happened and a center, our own like wellbeing or even regulation for that matter, if we want to like take on that perspective of like thinking like polyvagal theory, like when we take on our own regulation and own our part in it. I feel like there is this knowing over time where they're like, Oh, okay, like, I see how they responded to this mistake, whether it was my mistake, one of my colleagues mistakes, or their own mistake, or I saw what happened when they were challenged. And so that's telling me that like, the values that they have assigned to this practice actually are embodied. And again, not perfectly, but it's something that we're talking about, right. And so I think the more the leader owns talking about their own process and naming what they believe to be the current emotional process of their employees. For example, I'm aware we just made a lot of changes and so I want to name that and today we're actually going to be talking about a new change and so I want to name that we might have some like hesitations or concerns about that and I'd really like us to talk about why we're making this change and why we think it's going to be so beneficial. And so I I think when you do those things that are very much like pulling from our clinical skills, I think that it does help shape the work culture when we can actually start having those meta conversations. Yeah, I mean, that's exactly about building trust, right? Like naming it, laying it out there. And I love, you know, what you said about, I recognize you may not be willing to share those experiences with me and that our relationship, our trust and our communication. Is dependent on how I show up in this relationship with you and that matters. And so I'm aware of that and I wanna be aware of that moving forward. But I also think it's tricky because I think that's what makes it hard to be a leader is that we're therapists too, right? And so we're so compassionate, we're so empathetic, we're so understanding and we understand trauma. And so it could keep us from holding people accountable. It could keep us from, you know, having hard conversations and we're doing our people a disservice when we're not clear. I see it very much like parenting, um, in a lot of ways, you know, I'm a mom. And so I take a lot of like my parenting into my leadership and vice versa as well. And when my kids are struggling, if I'm not holding them accountable or having the conversations, what is it that I'm robbing them of from like, what is the opportunity that I'm taking away from them so that they can learn from, from whatever the experience is? Right. Yeah. And I do think like, I mean, so many times when I think about like me falling into that pattern of justifying employees behavior, right. Cause I'll I'll be like, Oh, I know why they're doing this though. And so I want to make sure I give them that grace. And then when I realized this is like the third or fourth time I'm telling myself that that's usually when I'm like, Oh, that's like an indication that I really need to have a hard conversation. And I feel like this one time I wrote myself a script that really like supported me in owning that I had avoided it and being like, I'm aware I've done you a disservice by thinking this and not giving you this feedback. And partially it's because I feel like I can step into your shoes and I understand what this is like. And there's this other part of me that knows, like, if I'm really honoring you and your professional growth and development, if I'm really honoring our work here, our program, our practice, then I do need to let you know this is the standard and here is how I want to keep you accountable to it. What's going to support you? And I think sometimes, again, a surprise that I found was that some employees actually really like that accountability piece. Like they actually feel supported when they know there's deadlines, when they know that here's what happens when I don't meet these deadlines, and not necessarily from like the need for it to be punitive, but just like here are the natural consequences of not meeting these standards or not doing these things. And so I think that it does start to shift and change, and it is like a muscle where the more you start to have the conversations, the easier they get. And I think the main thing in working with leaders is we see them thinking that they have to step outside of their values to keep employees accountable. Like they're thinking like, Oh, I can no longer be the empathetic. Compassionate person that I am. If I need to do this hard thing or hard conversation, it's like, no, it's actually like own your gift and your compassion and your ability to step into their shoes and know that what a great opportunity that you get to be the one to give them that feedback to help them in that growth, because if it's not going to be from you, who is it going to be from, and that next person may not be so considerate or thoughtful in giving that feedback. And I always think about like all the times where I'm like, Oh, thank goodness. I got that hard feedback, whether it was from a boss of mine or even from an employee is if I had continued with not knowing that I was causing what I was causing, whatever that was, I would have kept doing it. And so it's like, when you can shift that perspective of being like, I can be aligned with my values and really can be a gift in the way that I do this and the way that I help coach them through this. I feel like that kind of helps alleviate this, like... I'm going to deflate them, or I'm going to make them feel demoralized, or they're going to think like I am a bad boss, or they're going to hate me, or they're going to want to leave, like all the stories we tell ourselves. It's amazing how we go straight to like, they're going to leave. So wild. Well, that stomach drop, right? I feel like any of us have gotten that like, oh, that stomach drop when you get a resignation. It's brutal. It's hard. And it's hard not to take personal and it's hard not to even want to almost say to them, like, do you understand the impact, that this resignation means for me? You know, it's hard not to go there when, again, like there's going to be those seasons where you're stretched more than other seasons. And so I think when you're already in that space and you're already feeling a little defeated as a leader and something like that happens, I think employees don't necessarily know the weight of the responsibility that we carry, the risks that we take. And so when they don't have that perception or awareness, I do think those those are really hard. Hey, y'all, I love this episode so much. And I wanted to take a minute to just share more about my leadership coaching package that I offer. Do you desire to become a braver leader? One who has a clear vision and a distinct voice demonstrating a willingness to step up when it matters the most and lean into your courage, Brave and Well offers leadership coaching that is one-on-one with me, Vanessa, group practice owner, and a certified Daring Way facilitator. Leading a team is incredibly challenging. Learning to be a brave leader is a practice. This offering really empowers you to build a team culture that is mutual, respectful, and supportive. If you're interested in working with me to get direct one-on-one leadership coaching from the Dare to Lead model crafted by Brene Brown, then I really, really encourage you to reach out to me at BravenWell.com. Our time together will be about operating from a place that understands courageous leadership and using power with versus power over. And so, if you are in need of getting clear about who you are as a leader and how you can show up for your your team while not causing harm and not compromising the integrity of your business, go to braveandwell.com, click the services tab and click leadership coaching. You can learn more about what I offer, cost and how to reach out to me to set up your own session. Music. I have noticed that who I am, so my expectations of my leadership team and my expectations of my clinical team are very different. And I've been trying to think about like, what is that about? Right? We hold certain positions to a different standard than other positions. Like I'm harder on them, right? I expect more of them because they are supposed to be an example to the rest of the team. But I'm also like they're working really hard, too. They've got a lot on their plate, too. Do you all have any thoughts about that? I'm just curious. Because so many of us, you know, we do have like people in our practice who hold different positions, right? And they do different things, they have different roles. And so just trying to like think through how do we support everyone and hold everyone in the same regard and treat everyone in the same regard, regardless of their roles and their responsibilities. I think it's really challenging. Both Julie and I have led leaders, right? And it's, It's interesting, what you say is so true. I definitely hold my leaders, my supervisors to a higher standard than I do to clinicians or direct line staff. And I think it's because more often than not, it's because I've promoted them into those positions. And I've promoted them. Into those positions, because I've seen them excel in other areas. And so naturally, for me, what comes up is, well, you've done really well in these ways. And you've proved that you have the ability to be a leader for a number of reasons, right, whether it's because they've got excellent executive functioning skills, or because I see this attention to detail that I appreciate in leadership, or whether it's because I see somebody who really is compassionate. And so then I have this expectation that when they're leaders, they're going to be able to translate all those skills right away to leading others. And that's not actually true. And then I have to, I have to sit with, oh, I need to actually train them how to do leadership, not just clinical work. That's what comes up for me. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, I think it's so hard. I think like, it's like you, you start to establish your identity or role as a leader. And then when you have them leaders that you're helping, like develop, it really is a different skill set where you're like trying to support them and also stepping into what is their identity as a leader, right? So that shift from I'm just a therapist to now I have this other role or identity. And so I think also our leaders do reflect. They are an extension of us in a way of like they do also like reflect and you do want them to. Have their growing moments and you do want them to be able to make mistakes in the way you are and it is true that their mistakes or impact when they're in leadership has, more of a ripple effect and so I think both things can be true where. We do in some ways are holding them to a different standard because of their impact and their influence and I think it's okay to to, to name that part. And I think we have to give space for them to also make the mistakes and have that fall. And I think for me, at least, I know that was really hard for me. Like, how do I still give them grace, even though I know they've done something unintentionally that was harmful or had consequences. How do I make peace with that and give them compassion, teach them how to give themselves compassion. And also for them to own that they did our learning, they did make a misstep and also not take away their like authority. And so I do think it's a really intricate dance. And I think again, the more we can speak truth in those moments and like talk about that process and even model for our employees, like, yeah, we're figuring this out too. And there's going to be moments when we feel good about what we did. And there's gonna be moments we're going to be like, oh, yeah, that was really good learning experience for us. And we're going to be growing into this. Yeah. I think it's so true. What you said, put them about this whole idea that I need to train you how to be a leader, right? Like there is this piece around, yes, I've seen you work in, in this capacity. I know you're capable, but leadership is a whole different identity. It's a whole different set of internal work, but also just skill. If you are not in a space or have done the work to be in that, to take on that identity. I need to support you in that. That's my responsibility, right? And so that is a lesson that I've learned since I've been out and just kind of observing from a distance. But, you know, it's so true. It is so true. So I think about my employees, right? And you know, I now promote somebody into a leadership position and they're working with my employees and I see things be different. So there's also this sense of like protectiveness that I think sometimes a good practice owner might even experience. This is what I was able to do or did when I was directly supervising or leading. And now I've got somebody else. And so there's this like removal of responsibility. And at the same time, having to watch somebody sort of stumble through that over the people who you want to take care of or be taken care of. Oh yeah, I mean, letting go, right? That's a whole other thing of like letting go being the doer of all the things, letting go of control when you finally start to delegate and, Other people are doing the thing you were doing, and it's different. It looks different. And the emotions that come with that. Yeah, it's really challenging. That's a whole other hour, I think. I'm curious about, you know, creating safety, right? Like we talk about creating safety within your team and in the workplace. And I'm thinking like tangibly, what thoughts do you have around doing that? I know that transparency and conversation, right? And, and, you know, holding people accountable and all those things are important, but like, how do we leverage like team meetings or the office space? How do we leverage those pieces to create safety? So with so much intentionality, everything with so much in town intentionality, so specifically team meetings, that's something that, you know, as an introvert, sometimes it's hard for me or it zaps my energy anyway, but it's something that I go into. It's so much intentionality. So anytime we're doing some sort of an icebreaker or team building, why, why are we doing this? Is this because Google said so? Or is this because I think that this is going to support us in growth somehow some way. So it's really about considering what it is that we want to cultivate, what is the experience we want to cultivate? What is it that we want people. To feel and then creating that space for them somehow some way. So if I want to talk about communication and collaboration on my team and how that's really important. My team building activity or my team meeting is going to have something surrounding that. It might be that we're doing, you know, maybe like a drawing activity, but it's like, it's about communication. So maybe we're playing telephone and talking about how telephone can go really wrong. And so communication is really important. It's really important that we're clear in our communication, it ties back to what the purpose is. And so I think that creating intentional spaces, even our space and how our office might be laid out. How does this promote collaboration and teamwork? Does this allow people to share space together? Do we actually encourage people to collaborate? When someone comes to me with a question, do I just answer it because I know I can, or do I link them and bridge them to somebody else so that I can help them build relationships? So everything with intention. And there's so much, sometimes someone I work with sometimes says I'm a chess player because I'm so strategic in how I think about, well, if I do this, then this, you know, this interaction will create this. How do we build relationships? So I say the word intentionality a lot, but truly that's what it is. It's about being intentional with what we're looking for and then making sure that every action that we take is aligned with with that intention. And I think, you know, when it comes to meetings, I think sometimes it's reminding. Not reminding, but like letting the employees know what their role is in the meeting. And I don't mean it has to be this fixed, like, I only need to have you show up in this way. But I think sometimes it's really helpful, because sometimes if I'm introducing something to employees, I'm really just needing them to be open and to listen. Sometimes I'm like, really needing their feedback, like, Hey, is this gonna like work? Or like, what are your thoughts on this? Sometimes I just want to plant a seed for like a future happening, right? And so I think sometimes it's, it's realizing that like, if we don't help assign them those roles or how we'd like them to show up, they actually don't know. So they're guessing, right? And so sometimes when we work with leaders and they talk about meetings that go sideways, or if we think about meetings, even for ourselves that have gone really sideways, it often started with, Oh yeah, I forgot to state the intention. Like Poonam was saying the intention of the meeting, I forgot to invite them and how I'd like to see them show up during this meeting. So whether that's saying like, you know, today in this change process, I'd love to hear your feedback, or maybe you know that they're going to have a lot of feedback, but you need them to actually try it before they give their opinion. And so you're saying like, I'm really just asking for you to be open today and hear this new process. I'm definitely open to your questions and know that when we start to decide if this works for us or not, let's try this for the next 60 days. And then we're going to all come back together and really work through what's working and what's not. And so I think when you start to kind of invite them into how you'd like them to show up in meetings, then I think they own that more and they're willing to show up in that way and meet you halfway versus like the meetings where you get the blank stares or they are looking down at the table. Those are the worst. Oh, right? And you're just like, you don't know what's going on. Yes. And like, it's so hard as a leader not to go into all of your stories when you get met with like, right? And so I do think that that sometimes can really help that process and make things go a little bit smoother. And I think safety is created ultimately when people know what the expectation is. Yeah, that's right. I mean, and I think getting feedback from your team can be so challenging. Right. So you do have to be intentional about what does that actually look like? And so when you said, I want you to be open today and to just like take this in and we're going to try this out for 60 days, and then we're going to come back together. And I want you all to be ready to give feedback at that point. Like that is so clear. And it gives them an understanding of what their role is versus just coming into a meeting, blurting out a bunch of stuff, and then they're just looking at the screen or at each other person being like, OK, great. Like, what do we have agency in this? Like, what is what are you asking us to do here? You know, and team meetings. I'm sorry, but there's such an art. Like literally, we've had to change our flow so many and still changing it because you have to try things to figure out what works for the people that you have at that given moment. Because my team six months ago is not the team that I have now. I love that. Yeah. It's like they really form their own personality as a group. Which is why you can be one-on-one with an employee and be like, oh, cool, we're on the same page. And then you're having the same conversation in the group. And all of a sudden, that employee gives a completely different spin or opinion. And you're like, wait a minute, didn't we just talk about this? Where did this come from? And you feel totally out of the loop or whatever. And you're like, oh, right. As a collective group, they all show up differently and have created like this personality, if that makes sense. Right. Yes, yes. Love all of that. Oh, I wanted to talk about the importance of identifying your ideal employee or team member before you start hiring and just how important it is for you as a leader to be clear about who you're hiring and who you want to be on your team. I feel like I'm really clear about that now after some years of I want someone who wants to work on a team. I want someone who is interested in collaborating. I don't want someone who's going to come see their clients and go home and not speak to anyone ever again. Right? I want people who want to be in connection with each other. And I think oftentimes what happens is when you start to see these breakdowns in communication or breaks in your team, I. Have to ask myself, well, what is it, right? Is it a process? Is it something that we could be doing differently, or is it just the personality? Is it just that maybe this person is not a good fit. For this team? I don't know. Any thoughts about that? I'm sure you all do, but just wanted to ask. So I think you said it, it's so important to be clear. And I think that when we hire somebody and we know what we want, that the process starts from what does our ad look like even? And what is it that we're saying that we want from this person? Down to our interview questions, even what is it that I'm asking to be able to elicit and understand if this person will be a good fit. And then even during that interview, being candid and saying, this is what I'm needing or looking for in my practice. And this is something that's non-negotiable. Let's actually, like, can we have an open conversation about what this is like for you? Have you experienced this? And so I think that when we have a clear vision of who we want in our practice, we have to start from the very first step of hiring, which is what does my ad look like? To what are my interview questions? And then what does my onboarding look like? How do I onboard this person so that if collaboration and teamwork is really important to me, how does that onboarding process look in them becoming integrated into my practice? Am I doing the training? Am I the only person doing the training? Or is my team also doing portions of this training? And are they assigned to parts of this where they have expertise or mastery so that the new person feels wrapped and really sees that collaboration and community is important? You know, it's all of those processes. And again, intentionality continues to come up. How is this intentional so that the person that we're bringing on really feels and sees this culture? Yeah, I love like the golden thread perspective of like when we think about our clients, we often step into their shoes of like, what's that like for them to find us, to call us? What is it like for them to have that first like phone screening or are they doing a form? And we really think about their process of like the assessment process, the treatment planning, the treatment. And so like taking that same perspective for our employees and thinking about. What's, you know, Purnima, you said it so well, but like, what's that first introduction? How do the values that I have with my practice, how does that tie into who I'm seeing show up and how those values are actually embodied now on a team setting? And sometimes I think it's. Adding new values of like, here's the values of how we show up in our community, and here's how we serve our people. And then this is how we can be our best selves together and really tie and connect and embody these things and here's the way we like model and practice it. And I do love, you know, when you can ask questions based on not so much even always their clinical experience, but like, yeah, how do they like to show up in the workplace? What are they hoping to get out of a work environment? What would that look like for them? And I do think you start to get clear on like, almost like mindset. It's almost like you're interviewing more for mindset than even skill level at times, because we know that clinically, our people are going to grow and develop. But yeah, what's that mindset coming in? And like, if there's a mindset match, I want to say, then I feel like things do flow differently. And if you do have someone who is willing to step into or even has that, like growth mindset, I do think like things go so differently. And you're able to really cultivate what you envision, and it does seem to align better. Yeah, I find that I'm less interested in someone's clinical experience than like just who they are as a person, how they want to grow, how they would like to be. Given feedback, etc. I mean, you know, and not that clinical experience is not important, but that's why I have my clinical director in the interview too, because she's gonna ask those questions, right? I'm that's not my focus specifically. So yeah, having clarity about who you're looking for and making sure that there are also other members on your team to be the people to check the other parts of those, those pieces that you're looking for in someone. You know, I feel like leadership can be such a lonely experience overall. I have, I've felt Lonely, I I think. A lot coming out of that space. But I do think that it is, it is a thankless job sometimes. And it's hard, you know, and so I'd love for you all to share what we can do as leaders to maintain our energy to be able to stay in these roles and, and to sustain this work. Yeah, it is really a lonely role. And I think there are moments where you're like, oh yeah like it really does come back to me and there is no one else who has the same seat who can share exactly my perspective you know I think I think when you do have a the privilege of having a leadership team it's really nice because there's going to be some shared experience there and they're going to have some like idea or semblance of like what that's like or the demands and what you're going through and yet it still like stops at you and so you're like you're still aware of those moments of like, oh yeah, like it is just me in this seat and no one has this exact experience when it comes to my work and what we've created. And so I think that in those moments of loneliness, it's figuring out how to have connection. So even if someone can't sit exactly in where you're seated, who is it that you need to call on for support? Is it someone else who is also, in your leadership position who's also a practice owner? And is it just having that like, oh my goodness, did that happen to you too? I'm not alone in this. I'm not the only one who, you know, had like an employee crying in a meeting and another one, like their head on the desk, like all these things that, you know, like really getting to share in that and have someone normalize, I think is huge. And then I do think there is a lot of that. How is this sustainable for me? What are my needs around this? Like, for some of us, it might be having those moments of recharge during the day where we actually like give ourselves like the. Simplistic things, like, maybe I'm actually going to give myself a lunch. And even though I'm going to want to work through it, I've now learned that if I actually like roll away from my desk, and actually do that, or like stand in the sun or go on a little walk, I think sometimes it's making sure we're filling our joy and asking us what's going to light me up? Like, is there something that I would really want to talk about or train about? Or is in my lacking connection with my employees? And is my loneliness a reflection of me needing to actually do some kind of team building with them? And is that where this is coming from? So I feel like there's so many ways in which loneliness can show up. And I think that's where curiosity really helps us to be like, Oh, where is this coming from? And what kind of connection am I needing? Is it with a peer? Or is it with my people? And I think sometimes it can be both. And it's, again, I think just an invitation. Yeah, I love all that. I mean, it's it's okay to take care of yourself, right? We give so much all the time. It's not just when we're at work, but it's it's all the time. Yeah, it's in the middle of the night, right? It's like on the weekends, it's when you're trying to be present with your family. And you're like, still, you know, it's all these like little moments and we do, we give so much of ourselves. And so I think it's really looking for practical ways though, right? Like I think not to make our own well-being into another to-do or task that feels overwhelming, but like little ways that really fill our cup or give to our well-being. Right. I think for me, one of the ways that I've tried to take care of myself and sustain this this role is to be cognizant of how much I'm giving and to set boundaries around that. You know, I used to say like, yeah, you know, let me know, I'm always here. Call me anytime, text me anytime, I'm available 24 seven. And like reminding myself that it's okay if I'm not available around the clock, it's okay to set boundaries around when I am available and what that looks like and that I don't need to be as available as I normally am, or think I am. That I can reserve some of that energy for myself and my family. And so. It's hard. It's a hard practice. But it's like you said earlier, you know, the muscle of it, that the more you practice, the more it becomes just a part of how you move through the world. Yeah, I'm thinking I know so much now of our work is also like virtual, there's a lot, lot more telehealth. But what visually was coming up for me is Poonam made these awesome door signs that like uh we're sharing like for a leader like uh I feel like you'd be able to speak to this more even though I had them literally on my door but uh I can do like yeah I could share, basically it was just a way to communicate what our boundaries were right so it was everything from I'm in a supervision to I'm taking my lunch or I'm in the office but unavailable or I'm working on a project like whatever the things were but it was communicated and it allowed for so I'm an an open door policy type of a leader have been. And I realized, oh, I actually need to like close my door every now and then. And these door signs really helped with feeling more comfortable or held me accountable to being okay. To close my door and say, you know, I'm here truly knock if there's a crisis. And, um, this is what I'm working on with the unintentional outcome of that. Surprisingly is, is that my employees learn how to utilize each other's resources and learn how to become autonomous, which is such a gift as well. Yeah. Oh, and you just brought up the word crisis and I'm like, oh yeah, that your crisis is not my crisis. I do feel like also with employees, it's teaching them like the, the different levels of access in the sense of when is it a true crisis and please interrupt me no matter what, and when is something that can be paused, even if they're in anxiety and like, you want to honor that and like help support them and finding that regulation for themselves, but really what can we wait till next week? Or what can we tell our meetings tomorrow? And even being comfortable with like setting those parameters and even saying like, you know what, this is a great question. I can't wait to unpack this with you in two days when we meet for supervision or when we meet as a group for a meeting or whatnot. And then being able to circle back with them and being like, you know, I know I paused you. What was that experience like for you? Like, how did that go for you? Did that support you in any ways? And in what ways did you feel like stuck or frustrated? And so I think sometimes even like naming what their experience might be like helps to work through it as well. And then that goes back to trust and safety, right? Because when we talk about what that experience is like for them, what that experience is like for you, it helps you understand each other in that relationship. Right. I need that door sign. I'm going to just slap it on there. We'll send them to you. We'll send them to you. Exactly. Like truly. Thank you. I would love that. Thank you all so much for this conversation. I could talk about this all day because it is it is a lot of what I'm reflecting on for me personally. And so it feels very relevant to my life right now. one, so. I'm just super grateful to have met you all and to have this conversation. I know so many people listening will also appreciate it, but why don't you share with the audience kind of where people can find you and yeah, any other offerings that you have that you want to shout out? Yeah, well, thank you so much for having us and giving us space and opportunity to have these conversations. They're definitely our favorite to have as well. People can find us on Instagram at level leaders, or they can find us on our website, level of leaders.org. We love to like celebrate each leader's strengths. So we actually have an archetype leadership assessment that's free that people can take and kind of see like, what their strengths are and like, maybe areas where they can work on to cultivate actually more trust in their group practice. So if they go to level of leaders.org, that'll pop up and the opportunity to do that assessment will be available. Very cool. Thank you for having us today, Vanessa. Yeah, thank you so much. All right, y'all, I will link everything in the show notes so that you can access it at any time. And thank you all for listening. Until next time, stay brave. Thank you so much for listening to the Brave and Well podcast. You can find links and resources from this episode in the show notes at www.bravenwell.com. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review on your favorite podcast listening platform. Then send it to a friend. 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